marine safety regulations for kayaks

SAFETY FIRST!! Please read as no fish is worth dying for.
User avatar
Hvalross
Lord of the fish
Posts: 1280
Joined: 24 Sep 2015, 20:05
kayak: Yellow Hobie Pro 14
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Woodend, Victoria

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Hvalross »

Jordo wrote:
Hvalross wrote: Try hand bailing and keeping a yak into the sea.
If your yak is half decent then there is no need to keep your yak into the sea. A good yak with a half capable yakker can handle swell and chop from all angles - and you need to be able to just to go offshore. I just focus on the bailing (usually sponging) aspect and as long as I rock with the waves (working with the yaks secondary stability) then there is nothing to worry about - this is surprisingly easy to do.
IMHO the regulations In place to prevent kayaks from sinking are good, provided people know there kayaks and kayaking in general. Unfortunately you can't regulate against stupidity.... and there will always be people going out with no idea and/or experience. For example, where an experienced person may just negotiate around the yak and sponge out any water, someone with poor ability may end up flipping the yak with a hatch open - leading to two vastly different outcomes with the exact same gear.
The points you make are excellent. Applied to an experienced yakker in the right craft for the job.

The thrust of your post by my reading is use the regs to comply with any compliance check, that to me is tokenism, and ass covering by the Authorities.
You are an experienced yakker, you have a safe yak for your target activities. Experience not Regs. has got you (and others) using a sponge, and using it at the appropriate/safe time/manner. you have made the time to learn your skills and water time with your craft clearly has you confident to handle most eventualities. You and a swag of our Members are so far past where the Regs seek to inform that it is not funny, for you these items are to all intents and purposes simply show and tell PROPS to hold up for the Water Police to get a thumbs up and off they go.

Where I am coming from is commenting on the entry level user, who I would suggest are well on their way to being a significant percentage of the yakking fraternity. By nominating a bucket and bulge pump as mandatory is for them and me (still) suggests that "the Authorities" require us to carry those items for our safety.
Those silly enough due to inexperience will not find out just how much they have been misled by the Authorities until they have to try to save themselves or their loved ones. Its not a SIN to be a beginner, or inexperiences, or just plain stupid,......its intensely human.

The sum total of what I am putting forward is build safe yaks, only allow safe yaks to be sold, and tell beginners reading the Regs. the honest truth from the get go.

I took the time today to visit with two national Retailers near where I work... the ONLY yak on sale that has a) the capacity to store an appropriate size bucket is a Canadian canoe and b) many consumer sit ons are barely capable of carrying those items at all.

My input is aimed at beginners, NOT the experienced amongst us.
When all else fails........read the instructions!
Studies have shown that people who have more Birthdays tend to live longer...
User avatar
Jenko
PHD in Yakology.
Posts: 2426
Joined: 07 Mar 2010, 21:21
kayak: Big Aluminium One
Real Name: Gary
Location: Camperdown

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Jenko »

Glad to see they have clarified this rule (how many people can I carry)
If the vessel is a decked canoe or kayak or is otherwise fitted with individual cockpits, the number of persons carried on the vessel must not exceed the number of individual cockpits in the vessel, irrespective of the age of the person.
Probably wont stop morons taking little toddlers between their legs or worse, behind them.
Cheers Gary...
WestVic Signs 0429 184 940
I got a sweater for Xmas, really wanted a moaner or screamer.

Flathead PB 83cm Bream PB 43cm Luderick 38cm
Rhino
PHD in Yakology.
Posts: 2728
Joined: 19 Jun 2011, 18:18
kayak: Streaker Tournament/Zodiac
Real Name: Derwood

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Rhino »

Most of us take up kayak fishing because of it's simplicity and because it's just damn good fun.

Minimum safety requirements are just that, the minimum. To me they are straight forward, and I get confused as to why so many are confused by them, and why others seek to complicate them.
If one wants to go to extremes with other safety equipment, or develop a better idea in their circumstances to rid themselves from any water ingress, then there is nothing stopping you. The sponge is a great idea. I used one myself with my first two yaks, a Revo and Outback. Not only to soak up any water within the hull, but also to place behind the seat to soak up the water there so I wasn't sitting in it. No doubt a sponge would be scoffed at if made a minimum safety requirement by the authorities.

On the subject of bilge pumps or bailers, it's my opinion due to my experiences that they are invaluable. It would certainly have proved invaluable to the father and his four year old son I pulled from the water back in 2013. The yak had overturned and filled and father and son were in the water. Although able to right the yak, the father had no means by which to empty the hull. With the hull full of water they weren't able to re-enter the yak due to its instability. With one arm holding onto his son, he was unable to pull the water laden yak back towards the shore and the strong northerly wind was blowing both out to sea. The wind being offshore meant flat water. The story can be read in detail on these boards.

Other videos I've done and which can be seen here show guys deliberately filling their hulls with water believing that it would give them more stability. How would you propose to regulate that?

It's not just about inexperience either. Somebody known well to me who fishes from a kayak on the 'world' stage has also come unstuck without a bailer or bilge pump. He was lucky we were there (in the dark) to help tow him back to shore. It was quicker and easier for us to do that rather than bail his water out. Another flat day, and if alone a bailer could have been his lifesaver.

If you want to give worst case scenarios of wave after wave crashing over the top of the yak and filling hulls through broken, open or 'lost' hatches, then maybe a bilge pump or bailer isn't going to be much help, but I'd have to question why one would be out in those conditions in the first place.

A minimum safety item in a car these days is a seatbelt. It wasn't always the case.. It won't necessarily save you in a worst case scenario of a head on collision with a truck, but I'm not about to call that law a farce. It might just save my life one day, just as my bailer or bilge pump might.
User avatar
HaTTerS
Needs a life (forum tragic)
Posts: 4151
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 21:35
kayak: None (temporarily)
Real Name: Jeff
Location: Rowville

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by HaTTerS »

^Well said
Poised on the edge of sanity.
User avatar
Babylon
Needs a life (forum tragic)
Posts: 4893
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:43
kayak: 2017 Hobie Revo 13, Hobie Compass Duo
Real Name: Jim
Location: Corinella Victoria

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Babylon »

Just to add to all this..
http://www.wearalifejacket.vic.gov.au/
User avatar
Hvalross
Lord of the fish
Posts: 1280
Joined: 24 Sep 2015, 20:05
kayak: Yellow Hobie Pro 14
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Woodend, Victoria

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Hvalross »

Rhino wrote:Most of us take up kayak fishing because of it's simplicity and because it's just damn good fun.

Minimum safety requirements are just that, the minimum. To me they are straight forward, and I get confused as to why so many are confused by them, and why others seek to complicate them.
If one wants to go to extremes with other safety equipment, or develop a better idea in their circumstances to rid themselves from any water ingress, then there is nothing stopping you. The sponge is a great idea. I used one myself with my first two yaks, a Revo and Outback. Not only to soak up any water within the hull, but also to place behind the seat to soak up the water there so I wasn't sitting in it. No doubt a sponge would be scoffed at if made a minimum safety requirement by the authorities.

On the subject of bilge pumps or bailers, it's my opinion due to my experiences that they are invaluable. It would certainly have proved invaluable to the father and his four year old son I pulled from the water back in 2013. The yak had overturned and filled and father and son were in the water. Although able to right the yak, the father had no means by which to empty the hull. With the hull full of water they weren't able to re-enter the yak due to its instability. With one arm holding onto his son, he was unable to pull the water laden yak back towards the shore and the strong northerly wind was blowing both out to sea. The wind being offshore meant flat water. The story can be read in detail on these boards.

Other videos I've done and which can be seen here show guys deliberately filling their hulls with water believing that it would give them more stability. How would you propose to regulate that?

It's not just about inexperience either. Somebody known well to me who fishes from a kayak on the 'world' stage has also come unstuck without a bailer or bilge pump. He was lucky we were there (in the dark) to help tow him back to shore. It was quicker and easier for us to do that rather than bail his water out. Another flat day, and if alone a bailer could have been his lifesaver.

If you want to give worst case scenarios of wave after wave crashing over the top of the yak and filling hulls through broken, open or 'lost' hatches, then maybe a bilge pump or bailer isn't going to be much help, but I'd have to question why one would be out in those conditions in the first place.

A minimum safety item in a car these days is a seatbelt. It wasn't always the case.. It won't necessarily save you in a worst case scenario of a head on collision with a truck, but I'm not about to call that law a farce. It might just save my life one day, just as my bailer or bilge pump might.
Your assist rescue account of the father and son explains exactly why a bilge pump and bailing bucket are of no practical use...you state that the father was holding the son in one arm and hanging onto the upturned yak....exactly which appendage was that man to use to a) bail or b) operate a bilge pump?
Next, chances are inexperienced yaker in trouble will most likely have those items stored in a place where accessing them will certainly flood the hull if its not already flooded.

Finally who are these regs aimed at......the masses of occasional yakkers, or fellas :arrow: like yourself that have heaps of experience?
It has also been stated here that it is not necessary to keep the bow into the sea...well the vast majority of yaks on Aust waters will be recreational consumer glorified floaties, not sea going kayaks in the hands of experienced yakkers like yoursef. If anyone on this forum is brave enough to post that these useless pieces of flotsum dont need to kept bow or stern to sea that person is braver than me because that is the only way such a user will avoid being rolled.
You talk about a seat belt in a car......good, require every person to do an on water yak handling course where they get a licence only after they demonstrate the apropriate skills......
This sport certainly does need regulation and oversight, but by rational rules and measures......not cosmetics and days of our lives band aid measures.
When all else fails........read the instructions!
Studies have shown that people who have more Birthdays tend to live longer...
Rhino
PHD in Yakology.
Posts: 2728
Joined: 19 Jun 2011, 18:18
kayak: Streaker Tournament/Zodiac
Real Name: Derwood

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Rhino »

Hvalross wrote:Your assist rescue account of the father and son explains exactly why a bilge pump and bailing bucket are of no practical use...you state that the father was holding the son in one arm and hanging onto the upturned yak....exactly which appendage was that man to use to a) bail or b) operate a bilge pump?
I'm reluctant to give this any more oxygen after having had an incredible weekend, but perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.

"Although able to right the yak, the father had no means by which to empty the hull. With the hull full of water they weren't able to re-enter the yak due to its instability. With one arm holding onto his son, he was unable to pull the water laden yak back towards the shore and the strong northerly wind was blowing both out to sea".

IF the father had the means to empty the hull the son was more than capable of using his own 'appendages' to hold onto the yak beside his Dad. The father was only holding onto his son whilst trying in vain to swim he and the yak to shore, and also to give him comfort when resting.
User avatar
laneends
Vyak Addict
Posts: 6641
Joined: 25 Jan 2013, 15:59
kayak: Quests 11 13 Adventure 16 Revo 16 ORSki epic k1
Real Name: Keith
Location: Melbourne, Bundoora

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by laneends »

A bailer will not always get you out of trouble, but it might. All these mights add up to risk reduction.

Over the hols the once a year usage ebay yaks were out in force, with folks who hadn't a clue of risks. No idea how any of that will be prevented.
User avatar
Hvalross
Lord of the fish
Posts: 1280
Joined: 24 Sep 2015, 20:05
kayak: Yellow Hobie Pro 14
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Woodend, Victoria

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by Hvalross »

Rhino you are correct when you say you don't want to give this discussion more oxygen, what is needed is light. You say to read your post as I missed something..well I did READ your post, especially the bit you omitted:
"On the subject of bilge pumps or bailers, it's my opinion due to my experiences that they are invaluable. It would certainly have proved invaluable to the father and his four year old son I pulled from the water back in 2013."

Note in your rebuttal you say the father had no need to support his son, that he was more than capable of holding on himself....

I purchased a hand bilge pump from AKS it a standard approved item......if anyone has bothered to look at the rate and volume it pumps they would know that it has a maximum capacity of 375ml per stroke, a full cycle takes 5 seconds. For the 'average' yak to submerge it needs to be holding around 70 - 100lit of water, and will probably be holding more if it no longer has any flotation due entrapped air and relies on added solid floatation material.

So its going to take around 266 full cycles to empty this yak, assuming it is not being refilled at all. 266 cycles at 5 seconds per cycle thats 22 minutes. That also assumes that a person has two hands free to operate the pump, its not a one handed operation on the model I have.......From the roll over would it have been practical to devote 22 minutes to pumping two handed with a FOUR year old son holding onto the yak by himself....do we know if the kid could swim, or deal with his face being deluged with water etc... I think NOT I am very sure that Dad, like I and all Dads would be hanging onto that four year old and would have not let go till his own life was gone!!

Those two owe their survival to the fact that you were on the scene in the first place, second that you had the nouse to get off your ass and act FAST, that you had the SMARTS to go to the Ramp, that you were able to MOTIVATE and CONVINCE the two jet ski fellas and get out to the pair in distress - fast.

In the 18 years I spent offshore boating at Bermagui bad weather and big seas required us to activate our bilge pump -s plural and bloody high capacity pumps at that....a number of times. On the one time we assisted a boat that was dependant on internal flotation due to being swamped at the Narooma bar there is NO bilge pump made that is big enough to do that......

A hand bilge pump will assist (maybe) in only the most benign conditions as a possible prevention measure with the proviso that there is no possibility of water swamping the open hatch used to access below decks, very high capacity pumps will help avert some catastrophic events, not all however the current required make the appropriate batteries impractical in a yak.

A solid bucket on a yak is as useless as tits on a bull, the folding version suffers all of the vulnerabilities of a hand pump.

In the hands of an experienced yakker as @laneends says below, it may add up to risk reduction, I carry the items a) because the regulations say I have to and b) because I have experience using them, understand their limitations and can act accordingly.

Had folks read my posts, they may have picked up on the fact that my beef is that by regulating thus BEGINNERS who do not know better will ASSUME that these items will be all they require to be safe in an emergency.

It takes time and experience to get a handle on dealing with emergencies, as you well know from your background in chemical manufacturing, yakking is no different and that just about sums up everything that I am getting at.
When all else fails........read the instructions!
Studies have shown that people who have more Birthdays tend to live longer...
User avatar
wokka1
Yak Master
Posts: 3621
Joined: 05 Dec 2010, 15:32
kayak: Compass
Real Name: Warren (Fruitbat)
Location: Melbourne.

Re: marine safety regulations for kayaks

Post by wokka1 »

:roll:
Regards,
Wokka. (aka...Fruitbat)
Fishing... a jerk on one end of the line waiting for a jerk on the other
Post Reply