Mass Kayak Rescue in the Bay

[4liters]

I doubt any of them know. For them I reckon a kayak is just like an oversized surfboard and not subject to any kind of regulation.

[Hvalross]

2 deaths between approx. 150,000 people and countless trips is pretty good going.

Its not just about deaths, the death of a person or persons from a kayak accident is the worst outcome ....right?

Well no not really I think there are other pretty bad outcomes that don't involve the extreme loss of their own life, its the cost on those that survive, and its impact on the folks around them, consider this, a lady I work with took up paddling on the Murrey when she and her hubby and kids went up for their Christmas holidays coupa years ago. Here is the gist of what happened to her as best I remember her telling, a ski boat whizzed past her early in the morning, getting too close and creating a significant wake. The wake hit her side on and tipped her over, she fell amongst timber and as she tried to surface something had hold of the back of her ankle. Straining to get to the surface she was just a tad too deep and stuck fast, only managed a few breaths before the wake subsided leaving her just out of reach of air.
She could not free herself, a fella saw the whole thing from his camp on the sandbar opposite and got himself over on paddle board to assist.
He dived and felt that there was a thick cord holding her that was wrapped around her leg. he pulled her further down and untangled her, she still does not know how he managed 'cos she was in a flat panic of air. Releasing her got her face to the water and the fella held her head and shouted to his camp for a knife to cut the cord.
The cord was a set line with a massive hook, the hook was in behind her tendon and was a rusty old thing, she had done a lot of damage... today she still limps and the ankle, muscles and tendons still have issues, plus he gets constant pain and anxiety attacks.
She is self employed, and so lost a lot of time off work, but she has her life, not anything like it was before but she is alive today.......Why, 'cos a dick head was just too pig ignorant to slow down for a canoe, having many thousands of dollars invested in a ski boat and the good life means he just does not need to consider others.

Near drowning and extreme cold, near death events can and do come at some cost.

In motor cars it seems most folks choose to ignore the road rules, we do tests, pay fees, and if caught, fines, some do time... two lads are dead, crashing off the Bolte Bridge......On a total fire ban day on the bank of Major Creek a row of free camps, first one was a bunch of folks with a massive log fire going, plenty of green and water in front of them, but behind miles and miles of tinder dry bushland......

It can't be legislated for, it HAS to come from the individual. Stuffed if I know whats going to change the culture, except paying the personal price, seems to be the only lesson most take any notice of sadly.

[Justo]

Wow Andrew that's a full-on story, and your observations are sadly on the money. It reminds me of a saying I heard once; if you make something idiot-proof they just invent a better idiot.

[Jacko]

I reckon the last sentence in the age article sums it up:
"Know your capabilities and don't put yourself at risk by going beyond them."
In this case the parents need to know their kids capabilities and don't put their kids at risk.

[Anthony]

It can't be legislated for, it HAS to come from the individual. Stuffed if I know whats going to change the culture, except paying the personal price, seems to be the only lesson most take any notice of sadly.

There's only really one good way to change culture in cases like this and that's massive long term social marketing campaigns. A good example of this is the anti drink driving and road safety campaigns run by the government and TAC over 25 years which have been very successful but also very costly. Although the anti drink driving media only makes up part of the picture it is hard to say that it hasn't has a cultural effect on the acceptability of drink driving. Before the "bloody idiot" ads started to run no one would even blink an eye at someone driving home from the pub after a few beers whereas now it is socially unacceptable to most people. However as Ian said in the case of kayaking it is "only" 2 deaths in 150,000 and in transport safety figures that is the main statistic that is looked at. I'm not sure how many people get seriously injured while kayaking but I would guess that that is also a relatively small number. Whilst I and I'm sure many others consider 2 deaths to be too many it is hard justify throwing a serious amount of time and money at as issue that is relatively minor. When writing a policy or program proposal the one of the first things you do is a cost-benefit analysis. If the cost-benefit analysis doesn't make sense you may as well throw out the proposal because no one will want to look at it unless it's for an issue which is in the political spotlight.

As you said Andrew the other way to go is to make people pay for not following the rules and start throwing out fines left, right and centre. We took that approach to tackle speeding and some other road rule violations in Victoria and it has been successful. I could dig up some sources but it's fairly clear that main reason people avoid speeding in Victoria is because they know that speeding violations are heavily enforced and the risk of getting a fine outweighs the reward of speeding. Risk vs reward is the main thing you have to consider when going down this path. People are more likely to speed on country roads because they perceived level of risk in getting caught and or having an accident is lower than in metro areas. That is why we see so many fatal incidents in regional areas. I think the same thing happens with kayaking in that people are less likely to take safety serious when they are either staying close to shore or in smaller creeks and lakes. In this case I'd be willing to bet the the people involved didn't think they could get into so much trouble only being 150 meters from shore. In any case they main issue with tackling the problem with law enforcement is it leads to people following the rules because they have to and not because they want to be safe. Personally I think just wearing a PFD and carrying a bilge pump because that's what the regulations say isn't enough. Rather some serious thought needs to go into safety with considerations for issues that could arise while on the water and how you can personally overcome them. Another issue is that heavy enforcement usually leads to increased regulations. Once we start solving a problem using law enforcement we tend to hit dead ends in some aspects because they can't currently be enforced under the law so we create more laws and regulations. As many people have said on this forum more regulation might be counter productive again, because it leads to people just wanting to check boxes and not actual thought about safety. This issue is stated in the MSV action plan that was posted in another thread; "Incident data shows lack of training,
knowledge and experience in the use of safety equipment is preventing people from remaining in contact with, and being able to get back onto, their craft."

As you said we do a lot of work to curb drinking driving and practice road safety and it still isn't enough. There's no magical method to tackling issues like this, Justin put it well, if you make something idiot-proof they just invent a better idiot. People are always going to slip through the gaps no matter what you do and you have to accept that you've reached a point of diminishing returns. I think TSV are taking a step in the right direction with their new Safety Action Plan and whilst doing more would always be better it seems to be proportional to the issue relative seriousness of the issue at hand.

[laneends]

Difference with driver analogy is most drivers drive all the time so they adapt. Many of these holiday kayakers on their cheap specials (talking generally hear as details of this case are unknown) hardly ever do it and so are not going to learn. not even considering local conditions and real weather patterns other than its a sunny day.

It takes being caught or close calls to learn anything. The greater the % of one off users then lack of experience or awareness is going to be a growing factor

it is the casual and occasional useage that will cause the problem

[Hvalross]

I doubt any of them know. For them I reckon a kayak is just like an oversized surfboard and not subject to any kind of regulation.

@ 4liters makes a good point, I suspect that this thinking is at the root of a high percentage of ' infrequent recreational ' mishaps, seeing it as a surfboard why would you bother with PFD's etc... surfers don't so why should we? is I guess their thinking ( if any) and that is going to be hard to counter. As @Laneends says its at that end, the holiday/ pressie/toy end of the market that it seems the sales growth seems to be.

When i was a kid it was the car/truck inner tube inflated and used as a floatie in dams and lakes. Cant remember ever reading of a mishap involving a drowning, not that it did not happen, I am sure it did. Thing is this is media driven too, sells papers, gets hits on Facebook, draws folks in like voyers....

Is it a valid question to ask if we are not just making a storm in a tea cup? If life is so fraught with dangers, how come there are so many of us....are we just getting so PC that it is spilling into interference between high level idiots and their own destiny....have we become so sensitised that we are encouraged to yammer at incidents like this and force our community custodians to act.

I don't know the answer, but the point ( already made) that the more one tries to save the fool from itself, the harder it tries and the smarter it gets at being a fool. THAT, is sadly so very true.

I know the effect an incident like this has on me, It reminds and reinforces my thinking on my personal safety when setting up and using my own yak. I think on that incident and think tide + wind = drift...so what do I need to do or be aware of and plan accordingly BEFORE I set out and do check ongoing.

It may just be that that is the best we can hope for, and that is the folks that do apply themselves are kept alert and them that want/need/ demand/insist on being dumb will just keep doing what they do best...be dumb!

[spider25160]

My Father used to say "there is only one thing more stupid than stupidity and that is trying to legislate against stupidity" There comes a point in everybody's life where they have to make a choice and be prepared to take responsibility for the consequences. Without those that take educated risk technology and engineering advancement stagnates. Think of the pioneers in every field of endevour...the explorers, the shakers and movers the scientists etc. without them stepping into the unknown we would still be living in caves throwing stones to get our fish. In this day and age the human desire for adrenaline has been curbed to such a point that stupidity tends to be the only way one can feed the addiction....when people do foolish things someone often gets hurt....if you stop people doing foolish things the society stagnates that is a lose-lose situation.