Safety Concerns

[Jordo]

There are always going to be instances when even a flag is not enough to be seen. However, there is no disputing the fact that a flag will increase your chances of being seen on the water. If you want to be safer and more visible to boats, then a flag and hi-vis clothing are great options, and arent hard to get a hold of or make yourself. To say that they are not worth using because you have had close calls while using them is like saying it wasn't worth wearing a seat belt because you almost didnt make it in a car accident when you were wearing one anyway.......
Of course that's crazy talk! People come away staying how lucky they were that they had a seat belt on and how much worse it could have been.

All the boaties I have talked to are shocked to hear that despite the effort they make to keep an eye out for us, so many kayakers make very little effort to make it any easier for them.

So if a boat runs over you and you have a flag it won't be as bad. Or do I put a seat belt in my yak ?

Well you're arguing a point I never made, but what the hell, let's play along with your logic for a moment.

So flags are no good because even if they help make you more visible, which is indisputable, there is still a chance that it won't be seen and you will be run over by a boat.
Let's apply that logic to vaccinations. Did you know that 97% of those vaccinated against mumps make antibodies against the virus after the first dose of vaccination, and of those that don't produce antibodies after the first dose of vaccine, only 88% do so after the second dose. This means that despite being vaccinated twice, there is still a chance that your adaptive immune system has been inadequately activated to produce memory T cells against the mumps antigen. So after those vaccinations there is still a chance that you could contract and display a symptomatic mumps infection.

So under your logic, as it is not guaranteed to promote memory T cell formation, and if it doesn't produce memory T cell formation the vaccine is useless against mumps, we shouldn't bother getting the MMR vaccine. Just like if a flag is not guaranteed to make us visible to boaties, even if it indisputably increases visibility, it is not worth having at all, because if it fails it will provide no protection whatsoever when a boat hits us.

I understand you don't want to use a flag, but it is a useful safety accessory - so don't go saying otherwise. Consider the new yakkers reading through these threads, do you really want them using this logic and discarding the thought of using safety accessories that are potentially beneficial?

[cotso]

Never said they're not worth using. I said if people aren't looking they won't see them. Whatever !!!

[Jordo]

So if a boat runs over you and you have a flag it won't be as bad. Or do I put a seat belt in my yak ?

^I'd say that you were well and truely implying that they were useless, while you were saying that I'm going to get hit by a boat.

[cotso]

So if a boat runs over you and you have a flag it won't be as bad. Or do I put a seat belt in my yak ?

^I'd say that you were well and truely implying that they were useless, while you were saying that I'm going to get hit by a boat.

Was I ? I'm saying that the dickheads wouldn't have seen anything because they weren't looking. I also said good onya if you want one. In my case I don't.

[Hvalross]

If flags don't work, and working is colour and movement, why in hells name is Hi Viz MANDATORY for so many activities that are high risk?

The vaccination example is good, in that Safety is not about one piece of equipment doing all...Helmet for falling and low objects that can injure the head, Safety glasses for eye protection, resistant clothing for spills gloves to protect the hands, leg guards to protect them Safety boots to protect the feet, in other words SAFETY is about creating layers of protection for a multitude of risks a person may face within their particular activity.
Good point made about the width of a flag and pole when approached from head on or behind.....thats why some members that have applied a bit of thought to their personal safety wear Bright hats, fluro jackets and tops...a broad pair of shoulders in Hi Viz is gunna stand out like dogs.

IMHO the more conflicting this debate gets the more informative it gets. By definition a newbie knows little that he/she will need, so simply handing that person a list of must do's is akin to giving them a shopping list that they can cherry pick their way through... Debate and conflicting views is much better, that way they get to look at things from very different perspectives, rather than simply being ordered as it were to do this as we have told you in Law, Regulation or even an Organisations Rules etc. they get to see the WHY of measures debated and weighed up by a number of folks with very different views and blind spots. Flaws a person may have in their thinking get exposed in a third party discussion so we get to actually learn for ourselves without having to do the HARD YARDS

Happy to see this thread rip into subjects, but not into individuals for where their thinking is a a particular time.

[cotso]

Andrew I agree with you I wear Hi viz tops often but not a flag. My personal opinion with a flag is the two times I needed to be seen my flag failed big time because the skipper was an idiot. so I ditched it. Not saying don't get one, just don't think they're a guarantee that you'll been seen. If they become law ill get one.

[Smish]

Andrew I agree with you I wear Hi viz tops often but not a flag. My personal opinion with a flag is the two times I needed to be seen my flag failed big time because the skipper was an idiot. so I ditched it. Not saying don't get one, just don't think they're a guarantee that you'll been seen. If they become law ill get one.

This is my take on the flag issue, if a boat hits a kayak without a flag then the boat claims kayak users are irresponsible and pose a threat to safety on the water (I'd hate to hit a PA at 30 knots!) alternative scenario, a boat hits kayak with a flag, now more of the onus is on the boat owner. Granted the end result is the same for the kayak so that issue isn't resolved however the public's and regulatory authority's perception of kayaking isn't diminished and boat owners in their own best interest will take more care on the water possibly preventing future accidents involving kayaks with flags.

I see the flag as a symbol of taking responsibility for my safety and the safety of other users of our waterways - I'm happy enough to display that symbol.

[maverick]

I might pedal into a boat at high speed and just say I didn't see him because he didn't have a flag up

[maverick]

Andrew I agree with you I wear Hi viz tops often but not a flag. My personal opinion with a flag is the two times I needed to be seen my flag failed big time because the skipper was an idiot. so I ditched it. Not saying don't get one, just don't think they're a guarantee that you'll been seen. If they become law ill get one.

This is my take on the flag issue, if a boat hits a kayak without a flag then the boat claims kayak users are irresponsible and pose a threat to safety on the water (I'd hate to hit a PA at 30 knots!) alternative scenario, a boat hits kayak with a flag, now more of the onus is on the boat owner. Granted the end result is the same for the kayak so that issue isn't resolved however the public's and regulatory authority's perception of kayaking isn't diminished and boat owners in their own best interest will take more care on the water possibly preventing future accidents involving kayaks with flags.

I see the flag as a symbol of taking responsibility for my safety and the safety of other users of our waterways - I'm happy enough to display that symbol.

Only flaw I see with that is that flag's are not mandatory, so I have every legal right to pedal my yak without one. (not supporting one or the other arguement - just observing)

[laneends]

Flag wont stop an imminent collision but it will give an earlier heads up to others on the water that you exist before they are anywhere near you, and as such will avoid many unnoticed close proximity calls in the first place.

In particular you will be easier to locate from shore and other for other yakkers whos line of sight is much lower. There is more to safety than collisions. We are such tiny dots on the water that the more visibility we have the better and the higher the safety margin.

If you are taking on water or cant reenter and have to call out Thunderbirds, then the easier you are to spot a mile away the better. You are even harder to spot if you are hanging on to the yak rather than sitting in it, where nothing is more than a couple of feet above the water line.

Its also one of the easiest and cheapest mods.

Given they are really only of benefit on open water, for distance visibility, it is one of those things that could be a distance from shore provisions.

I do believe the answer to safety, if it lies in the provision of regs, it should be distance from shore related otherwise it becomes ridiculous for many instances