Transport Safety Victoria kayak forum - outcomes?

[Lloydy]

I'm interested in the outcomes from the Transport Safety Victoria kayak forum. The question's probably for Rhino or Maverick, who I believe were present, are you able shed some light on how it when down and any outcomes that were discussed?

[ratfish]

So for anyone who may be interested, the Transport Safety Victoria, Kayak Safety Roundtable went ahead today, maybe 28 people in total there with reps from the Ministers Office, Coroners Office, Police, TSV and their counterparts from NSW, QLD, Tas, BIA and reps from Training, Retail and Industry Groups. Then me & Rhino.

Kudos to Rhino, one his youtubes opened the show.

A bit of a talk fest with some self interest in self promotion obvious ( I don't think it was me for a change ) and I think apart from the Rays Outdoor Area Manager, myself and Rhino we were the only actual kayak fisherman.

They focused on 10 recent deaths, 7 of which died from not wearing life jackets, and 3 from possible hypothermia (including the 2 in the powered yaks at Sandringham 4 years ago). Of the 10, only 2 were fishing related (the 2 from above). So preventing 7 of the deaths was easy, wear life jackets. A lot of focus was put back on the big retailers to perhaps train staff better, but that doesn;t overcome the online and second hand purchases.

VYAK was certainly promoted for its focus on safety and being a great resource. So expect some online visitors seeing what is done on here and how we conduct ourselves.

There was some discussion about voluntary kayak registration and even having name & phone number tags on yaks. It wasn't about revenue raising (being voluntary gives that away) but more about getting a grasp on how many people actual kayak, their experience levels and what they do & why.

Comparisons were drawn between the Qld rules and no life jackets and Vic, but pretty quickly everyone agreed that the biggest killer in Vic is hypothermia, which isn't such an issue in warmer water up north.

It wasn't until the end of the meeting that I suggested we should also look forward, not just historically and look at what the new issues are, given the growth in sport, identifying the offshore fishing expansion and night/morning lighting risks. I did have a good chat with the TSV Boss about PLB's offshore instead of EPIRB's later on.

Thanks again for everyone who participated in responding to the poll, as the results of the poll were passed on and I think it was a very positive impression that we could pass on the feedback the way that we did.

[Lloydy]

Cheers for reposting Shaun

[Rhino]

I thought the round table was a great initiative and I was happy to be invited along with Mav.
Kayaking safety is a major focus for TSV/MSV going forward.
There were a few in the group who did appear to like the sound of their own voices a bit, and seemed more focussed on terminology and buzzwords rather than any real action at the coal face. It threatened to become a talkfest at times, but having said that I think there will be some real outcomes in the future.

TSV will have a sharp focus on point of sale education with a possible accreditation program. An accredited retailer will have trained staff who will have the required knowledge to advise customers on a 'fit for purpose' craft and educate on all aspects of safety including legal requirements, equipment and weather.
They are well aware of the issues around eBay and the secondhand market. It was suggested that banner ads be placed on eBay and Gumtree etc that will pop up on the kayak pages.
Mobile billboards might also appear on some main thoroughfares as well as signage on beach locations with high kayak traffic.

I interrupted at one stage to suggest that what I was hearing was great in terms of point of sale education and making sure that people buy PFD's etc. Mav and I made the same point that that largely happens anyway because any retailer worth his salt will be trying to 'upsell' anyway, although that may not be the case in the major chain stores. But just because somebody buys a PFD doesn't mean that they are going to wear it. I told them that I was checked by water police three times in the stinker last year within a single month, and that in eight years of kayak fishing two to three times a week I was never checked, and nobody I know has ever been checked. I told them that they were being laughed at in some quarters of social media and that myself and others have been scoffed at for trying to promote a safety message because they know that their chances of being checked and penalised are almost non existent. I suggested that if they want to send a message then they should run a kind of blitz and book some of the cowboys doing the wrong thing and then watch that message spread like wildfire through social media. That message would be spread for free.

TSV have a line of communication with boaties because of boat operator licensing. That is not the case with kayak ownership and usage. They don't know who is buying them, where they are and what the intended usage is. They have a dilemma with how to deal with Mum, Dad and the kids playing in the shallows on the beach with the pool toy kayak and the serious guys travelling much further out to sea in serious kayaks. The dreaded licensing and registration was mentioned. However, it would be a free voluntary program with an incentive of a free safety pack or waterproof phone pouch for those participating.

I've since been contacted by MAST (Marine and Safety Tasmania) who are moving pretty quickly with some of the above ,and also by TSV who have other exciting initiatives that I can't say much about yet.

So as it stands, there is nothing to fear from more regulation. Just more education, awareness and active enforcement. The safety requirements for a kayak are really quite minimal, so there are no excuses really.

Cheers
Rhino.

[laneends]

re water police & on water kayak checks. As far as PFDs are concerned I have had them cruise past and they they can readily see if you are wearing one, whereas on a boat you merely need one on board so they need to physically stop and check. pulling up alongside a yak can in itself cause a hazard so I guess they wont do it without good reason..same applies to fisheries on water catch checks.

If all PFDs were mandatory hi viz it would make drive by checking much easier, despite the safety benefits of hi viz..(mines not hi viz, but wish it was)

[Hvalross]

I thought the round table was a great initiative and I was happy to be invited along with Mav.
Kayaking safety is a major focus for TSV/MSV going forward.
There were a few in the group who did appear to like the sound of their own voices a bit, and seemed more focussed on terminology and buzzwords rather than any real action at the coal face. It threatened to become a talkfest at times, but having said that I think there will be some real outcomes in the future.

TSV will have a sharp focus on point of sale education with a possible accreditation program. An accredited retailer will have trained staff who will have the required knowledge to advise customers on a 'fit for purpose' craft and educate on all aspects of safety including legal requirements, equipment and weather.
They are well aware of the issues around eBay and the secondhand market. It was suggested that banner ads be placed on eBay and Gumtree etc that will pop up on the kayak pages.
Mobile billboards might also appear on some main thoroughfares as well as signage on beach locations with high kayak traffic.

I interrupted at one stage to suggest that what I was hearing was great in terms of point of sale education and making sure that people buy PFD's etc. Mav and I made the same point that that largely happens anyway because any retailer worth his salt will be trying to 'upsell' anyway, although that may not be the case in the major chain stores. But just because somebody buys a PFD doesn't mean that they are going to wear it. I told them that I was checked by water police three times in the stinker last year within a single month, and that in eight years of kayak fishing two to three times a week I was never checked, and nobody I know has ever been checked. I told them that they were being laughed at in some quarters of social media and that myself and others have been scoffed at for trying to promote a safety message because they know that their chances of being checked and penalised are almost non existent. I suggested that if they want to send a message then they should run a kind of blitz and book some of the cowboys doing the wrong thing and then watch that message spread like wildfire through social media. That message would be spread for free.

TSV have a line of communication with boaties because of boat operator licensing. That is not the case with kayak ownership and usage. They don't know who is buying them, where they are and what the intended usage is. They have a dilemma with how to deal with Mum, Dad and the kids playing in the shallows on the beach with the pool toy kayak and the serious guys travelling much further out to sea in serious kayaks. The dreaded licensing and registration was mentioned. However, it would be a free voluntary program with an incentive of a free safety pack or waterproof phone pouch for those participating.

I've since been contacted by MAST (Marine and Safety Tasmania) who are moving pretty quickly with some of the above ,and also by TSV who have other exciting initiatives that I can't say much about yet.

So as it stands, there is nothing to fear from more regulation. Just more education, awareness and active enforcement. The safety requirements for a kayak are really quite minimal, so there are no excuses really.

Cheers
Rhino.

Was, for many years very active with VPC and other local fishing bodies interacting with Regulators and Enforcement, and the Minister (of the day)...............I for one will not be holding my breath.

Was at Anaconda a while back, heard a discussion between a fella and his girlfriend about a prospective purchase, hung around and checked in on the sale, as expected they walked out with a bare yak and paddles.......nothing else. The planned trip was to the either Mulwala or Bundalong........they had no gear but decided on the single yak as its payload allowed them to dink... , if by chance the Sales person did ask about safety gear they had NO intention of spending the extra $200 on PFD's as their budget was already stretched............

As to enforcement, you gotta be joking Rhino, there are NO resources available that have anywhere near the reach to check us, never mind available to be allocated. They, TSV etc. have NO interest other than ticking KPI boxes, and then spending our hard earned Taxes on Advertising Agencies to produce awareness (JOKE) and Council Notices that are hardly ever read.

NSW fisheries curbed Cod slaughter via drum nets and cross lines.....that involved a) automatic impoundment and sale of seized boats and gear, no discussion , no appeal, and b) licensing. Funding cuts, redundancies and cuts to fisheries operational budgets mean that the slaughter is on in earnest.

Until an Idiot loses 100% of his /her investment an idiot will not be swayed by wa**ers around a table generating hot air, or the produce of their hot air........BEEN THERE, DONE THAT, and these committees and consultation forums are at most mearly a platform for ego massage.

Regret if this sounds like I am pi**ing in your or others parade, these outcomes are just promoting false expectations on folks that do have a genuine concern for Safety as you obviously do.

Not IMHO at all, IMAEHO......(in my actual experience, hands on!!!)

[Rhino]

Keith - there is truth in what you said. As pointed out by an Inspector with responsibility for water police, I have been checked, i just didn't know it. They'd have seen my pfd and kept going. They used the Oh Boy vid as an example of what goes on, and I told them that I see this on a weekly basis. Almost everytime I go passed Millers Rd pre sunrise or after sunset I see yaks without lights. It's outside of business hours though right?

Hvalross - I was asked what happened on the day and I answered the question.
I don't disagree with you and there were a few there who really liked the sound of their own voices.
As far as enforcement goes, I told them they are being laughed at. We know there are limited resources and in my time I know of nobody who has received a penalty notice. Except for some who have been rescued. One guy receiving a fine of about $1500.

Time will tell if they move ahead with anything they spoke about, or whether it was just another bureaucratic talkfest. I said the same thing in a follow up call from them yesterday.

At the end of the day though, geez they put on a good spread.

[Hvalross]

Keith - there is truth in what you said. As pointed out by an Inspector with responsibility for water police, I have been checked, i just didn't know it. They'd have seen my pfd and kept going. They used the Oh Boy vid as an example of what goes on, and I told them that I see this on a weekly basis. Almost everytime I go passed Millers Rd pre sunrise or after sunset I see yaks without lights. It's outside of business hours though right?

Hvalross - I was asked what happened on the day and I answered the question.
I don't disagree with you and there were a few there who really liked the sound of their own voices.
As far as enforcement goes, I told them they are being laughed at. We know there are limited resources and in my time I know of nobody who has received a penalty notice. Except for some who have been rescued. One guy receiving a fine of about $1500.

Time will tell if they move ahead with anything they spoke about, or whether it was just another bureaucratic talkfest. I said the same thing in a follow up call from them yesterday.

At the end of the day though, geez they put on a good spread.

I hear your frustration.

[squidgyflicker]

lets just hope they come up with something that prevents further loss of life....that truely is the important part of what im hearing.
personnally i think if it results in licence testing and on water checks and fines for some then so be it...i honestly beleive it is what is needed

[Yako]

Derwood thanks for keeping us posted of what's going on TSV etc.

There really are ways around this sticky problem we need to come up with solutions (of course not everybody will agree or like them).
I agree with the name n shame concept where it is publicised extensively on Social media, Youtube, and TV News etc. This keeps our tax costs down in regards to spending $$$$ on media ads etc, although having a few ads on tv wouldn't hurt.
Where could the money come from:
1: A retail tax off all yaks sold (okay I hear the groans already). These mostly rotomoulded polyethylene tubs don't cost a lot due to their mass production so yes there is
some fat that can be trimmed off.
2: Fishing the bays or offshore should have a registration system with nominal yearly fee like a fishing licence with the absolute guarantee TSV etc will have increased water patrols (relax I'm not talking Nazi Nanny state). If you're doing the right thing why worry.
3: Public donations, fund raising etc.

I did my marine licence with PWC and don't use it too often, I'm not rolling in the dough and it really didn't (still doesn't) phase me paying for it (although it needs to be tougher with more practical testing - Yup I can see the eyes rolling )
A 1800 hotline to dob in idiots to Water police etc who "should" be patrolling the waterways anyway or on standby.
There is no cheap Bandaid solution here.
If you go to ANY & I mean ANY fishing or kayaking forum you will hear that there are heaps of Idiots out there and to some degree is getting worse.
Unfortunately the human being has been created in a way that we don't (mostly) think "That could happen to us", so to state the obvious as a group of caring concerned humans we should welcome non Draconian guidelines and regulations.

A really good base starting point is continuous education through:
A: Mandatory attaching of safety guidelines to all kayaks by retailers with a tear off sign section " I have read ...." that the retailer mails to TSV.
B: Mandatory linked safety requirement video clips on all kayak sails (Ebay, Gumtree, Dhgate, Grays etc) when a person clicks "Buy" (It's the 21Century & technology is there at minimal cost).
B: Get all Admins (voluntarily) on all fishing & kayaking forums to keep a continuous pinned post of minimum safety requirements.

Okay look these are just some random ideas I have, so before starting to flog me just agree with the ones you like and add your own.
This is a bit like chcken soup (Whaat ??? you say) Yep just take the good stuff and chuck out the bones (rubbish)
I'm sure we can all contribute and come up with some good workable stuff in the end that won't cripple kayaking.
Sorry for being long winded