Missing Kayaker

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Yako
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Yako »

Kayak has been found but no sign of the poor bloke :(

The vessel was found in Port Phillip Bay, around 16kms west of Edithvale and more than 30kms from where Mr Yoshimura's car was found at Altona. Authorities continue their search for the the man.

Source: http://www.bay939.com.au/news/local-new ... ayak-found
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© bay 93.9 Geelong
John 3.16/17
Yakass
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Yakass »

Yako wrote:
Yakass wrote:The PA is great for fishing flatwater but in anything less than picture-perfect conditions is a terrible choice for open water.
Maybe so Josh, but I've lost count of the number of times I've been out in less than ideal, even my best was in Jan this year being hit with 32 Kt winds at corner inlet (so maybe worse if offshore).
I agree there are better yaks but I don't agree with your "flatwater" statement :up:
I am not saying it cannot be done. I am saying that it wasn't built for that and as such will not perform as well, not to mention more likely to be problematic is the going gets rough. Freeboard is a problem in higher winds and the shape and beam of the boat make it precarious in lumpy water (refer Knogg's Cape Conran capsize video).

Imagine being 5+km off shore in off shore winds at Portland in a PA and then having a drive chain blow out (lots of people - second hand owners usually - do not know how to maintain their drives) and then having to paddle it back. Thats a pretty good example of the kind of scenario that concerns me and if I ever hear a customer tell me thats what they have in mind, I'll do everything I can to sell them anything but a PA. Its great for what it was built for, but too many people plan to buy it for the wrong application.
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laneends
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by laneends »

Hvalross wrote:

However, go over it will and fill and become a bloody dangerous whale, it most certainly will.
So would the average tinny on eildon. Cant right a tinny or a traditional canoe. On lakes you have the advantage of heading to nearest shore even if its not back at launch.

I have been caught out in rough conditions in the Quest, while hairy it would have been more dangerous in said tinny. A PA is really a pedal powered tinny, with a sealed hull, rather than a true kayak.

A true kayak can handle conditions far better than the average kayak fisho, who on the whole have no idea how to handle kayaks in the way an experience sea kayaker can.

In rough conditions I bet there are few who could paddle a mirage kayak back if the drive broke. I am learning a whole new set of skills to be able to do this in the revo 16 and that is leaps ahead in ability to paddle than any other hobie. I dont want to find myself with a busted drive a couple of kms say from altona (let alone offshore) with a strong northerly building without knowing I can confidently paddle back (without an effective rudder).

I can imagine this missing kayaker being in that position trying to paddle a cheap tandem back against a building northerly. Would have been horrible.
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Hvalross
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Hvalross »

Fre weather chang.

Our experinves differ in that having fished far far offshore in a boat around Bermagui been a weather/ cloud watcher long long time too.
Thr Bemm and Lakes to name just two have given us just enough time to get tournament boats in by a natfs. Any yakker where we were up the river, ecpecting a front would have been just getting into gthe lake proper. Wind was side on to homeward track and Mid Lake the only option with a following.
It took lessx than 10 min. From the front hitting to having two boats crawling in to avoid a real dirty pounding side on
I recall commenting at the time that I was thankful that I was not in the yak.
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Yakass
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Yakass »

Hvalross, you are right when you say conditions can change faster than expected and you're also right when you remind us that waters like Eildon and Bemm (for examples) can become deceptively rough and certainly potentially dangerous for kayaks. The point that some of us are making here is that other models (particularly in the right hands) would handle those sorts of conditions better. So with that in mind I would suggest that this is one of the best reasons that people should be mindful about how far they venture from land in kayaks that are known to under-perform in rough conditions, especially when they haven't mastered righting and reboarding their kayak efficiently.
A true kayak can handle conditions far better than the average kayak fisho, who on the whole have no idea how to handle kayaks in the way an experience sea kayaker can.
Take it from someone who sells kayaks primarily to anglers, this is flat out true (this is especially true of Hobie owners, which I will elaborate more on next paragraph). This is one of the biggest issues I see with the sport today and I have been whining about this for years. Most of our first time customers are not kayakers and some of them have never even sat in a kayak before. Many of them don't approach the sport with the intention of getting good at kayaking, their primary goal is to catch fish, and thats it. Because of this many beginners see these kayaks as fishing platforms and are thinking about which will offer the best the fishing experience. They are thinking about mounting options, storage room, installation options, how it's all going to come together and what its going to be like to catch fish with it. What very few of them are thinking about is the ride (other than stability, which is a trickier subject than most expect) and how well suited it is to the kind of waters they plan to use it in. So many people gravitate towards Pro Anglers for this reason, and they are often surprised to hear me tell them a Revo (for example) might suit their needs better

I have been selling Hobie's for a decade now and have observed a couple of concerning trends in some of the people who buy them. Firstly, Hobie's tend to provide a false sense of security because they are so easy to use. Part of the issue is that because the pedals are so much easier for many people to use, thats all they ever do, and as such don't develop any kind of reasonable paddle skills or fitness.

Which leads me to my next point, which is that too many people don't know how to keep their gear in optimal condition, or even use it properly. This is most common with people who buy second hand kayaks and it is purely because they receive little to no info about how to use and maintain it when they buy it. It's not rocket science and there's loads of helpful forums, articles and videos online to help people educate themselves... but sadly many don't. The sheer amount of guys who buy second hand Hobie's and don't know how to put the drive in properly (for example) is staggering.

The Miragedrives are incredibly hardy (I have done over 30,000km on water on Hobies and never had a single drive failure) and they are easy to maintain, but maintenance does need to be performed regularly; rinsing, lubricating and chain tension being the main ones. The paddle is on hand as a backup just in case, but unless you know how to use it problems will arise when you need to fall back on it. And PAs do not paddle well even in the hands of an experienced paddler, which is another reason why I don't think it's a good choice to take them a long way off shore
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Hvalross
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Hvalross »

Really good response thanks, but let me ask you this.
Does any of that change the fact that a PA on the shop floor will flood fast if the nose is buried? Is that safe?
If a motor vehicle or appliance demonstrates the ability to be unsafe in normal use or in circumstances outside of the control of the manufacturer do they take steps to remedy that.

The answer to that in my opinion is outside the USA a big yes. Inside the USA a big no they try to hide it or mitigat somehow.

To me this is not a sellers issue, rather its a manufacturers issue and guess what HOBIES are made in the USA so we suck it up and take precautions.

Not ideal to my mind but thats how it is for now.
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Yakass
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Yakass »

Hvalross, no, it does not, nor did I intend it to. Here's my point - the PA should not be ending up in situations where the nose is buried, just like a Canoe should not be used in similar circumstances (and trust me, the canoe will fare a lot worse).

The fact of the matter is this: no two kayak models are equal and there is no silver bullet solution thats going to be good at everything. This is true of all boats. It just so happens that the PA is really good at some things, not so good at others, and rough conditions happens to be one thing it does poorly, much to the surprise of the uninitiated.

You seem to be determined to lay blame on boat design when instances like this pop up, but the truth is that in the vast majority of cases where a fatality has occurred user error is by far the main contributing factor, usually down to inexperience and being ill-equipped. By user error, among other things, I do mean using a boat/kayak in circumstances it was never designed for. There is real reluctance among some users in this particular forum (more than any other I have observed) who don't seem to want to accept that the PA isn't great for off shore stuff, and this very issue has come up a number of times. The fact that we're now in 2017 and there is still confusion about this among the ranks at VYAK is a perfect example of why I said you shouldn't assume that VYAK members are more educated.

Could Hobie make the PA more resistant to ingress through the front hatch in rough waters? Absolutely. Are there measures people could take to minimise the potential impact of this? Yes, several - both prevention and cure. Is there anything you can do to make the PA a much better 'kayak' for open water? Not really, no. Its just not built for it. Not saying it can't be done but I am saying it can't be done safely in seriously challenging conditions. 'Horses for courses' is what I'm saying.
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Seasherpa
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Seasherpa »

On the same page as you with this one Josh. There are lots of places that you can use particular models of kayak, but in doing so you reduce the margin for error, something that you want as much of on your side as possible.
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laneends
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by laneends »

The other issue mirage kayaks suffer from in very rough /surf conditions is the inevitable instability due to swamping that such an open cockpit incurs. Sure it drains quick via the drive but not before it causes an issue. The islands dont suffer as much because they have Amas. Open water sit on tops have very minimal open cockpit and narrow leg wells so they dont catch much water and have high hull bouyancy. Waves wash over, not into.
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Hvalross
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Re: Missing Kayaker

Post by Hvalross »

Yakass you have nothing to defend in my eyes. I am not a crusader for or against Hobie.
When all else fails........read the instructions!
Studies have shown that people who have more Birthdays tend to live longer...
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